In a captivating episode of our SAS Speaker Series, we welcomed Andy Lykens, Director of Music Services at Netflix, who offered invaluable insights for composers aiming to make their mark in the industry, what the day-to-day is like at Netflix, and most importantly, his love for “Weird Al” Yankovic. Let’s dive in, shall we?!
Jordan Passman: I recently read the No Rules Rules book, which is about the Netflix culture. It’s an incredible place to work for a lot of reasons. How has that changed and evolved since you’ve been there for the past decade?
Andy Lykens: It’s been an amazing ride. My early conversations at Netflix with music folks were just trying to describe what we were doing, right? It wasn’t quite what they were used to with network TV promos and with film trailers. It’s just a little bit different and somewhere in between. These days, I feel like we just have way more of a shorthand and we have really strong relationships with our music partners. So yeah, I would say it’s nice. It’s nice to be in this world where things have gone from sort of cloudy murkiness to like, okay, this is Netflix. We know these guys now. So it feels good.
Jordan Passman: Just looking at personal inspiration, who are your musical heroes?
Andy Lykens: Okay, I love this question. When I was really young, I was into two main artists. It was the Beatles and “Weird Al” Yankovic. I was a huge “Weird Al” fan. As I got older, it was more jazz stuff. Today, I still listen to the Beatles a lot, but I gravitate more towards jazz. So Bill Evans and Chick Corea. I like stuff that’s a little farther out. So, you know, Kurt Elling, who is one of my favorite vocalists. I love listening to Charlie Hunter as well, and there’s also this guy named Ray Anderson. If you’ve never heard of him, he is insane when it comes to the trombone. I’m also a big John Mayer fan, I love Kamasi Washington, Robert Glasper, and Terrace Martin.
Jordan Passman: Have you ever been to a “Weird Al” concert? How good was it?
Andy Lykens: I have, and I could not believe how good it was! Even if you don’t like “Weird Al,” you should go see him. It is just so entertaining. I could not believe how good it was. If you’re not familiar, he dresses up in costumes and dances around, kicking his legs up by his ears—it’s truly insane and he hits every single note. It’s unbelievable.
Jordan Passman: Shoutout to “Weird Al”! He really is such a legend. When you were working on the sales side of things at Netflix, networking was crucial. Focusing on who you know and building relationships. How did you go about networking when you were first starting out?
Andy Lykens: This is a great question. I’m going to answer it as how people should go about it rather than how I went about it because it took me a while to learn this one. I think that there’s a way that everybody can be helpful to somebody else. When people think about sales, they think about cold calls, business cards, and asking the person for a particular thing, right? Asking for the sale, all that stuff, which is all true. That’s all necessary, but I think underlying that needs to be this perspective of how am I actually helping this person? What is the stage of our relationship? If you’re talking to somebody that you’ve just met and you’ve had a decent conversation, it’s not necessarily the best time to ask them to put your music into their next project. Ultimately, that person’s problem at that moment in time is not that they are looking for the exact piece of music that you happen to have in your back pocket. Networking is about giving first. It’s about being helpful and thoughtful and doing it in a way that only you can do.
I went through various phases of this. Early on, I would do cold calls or I would show up and knock on people’s doors because at the time music libraries were all on CD. I would do that and it didn’t really get me anywhere because people don’t associate that with anything meaningful. However, as you go along, you start to learn that what makes you valuable is whatever it is you bring to the table. As a young person, it took me a long time to figure out what that was. Part of it is figuring out what that is for yourself too. What is it that I’m doing that’s different, interesting, and could be helpful to this person? That answer involves a deep understanding of the person you’re talking to. If you can’t clearly define the person that you’re talking to, or truly understand what problem they might be having, then you’re probably not in a position to sell anything yet.
Jordan Passman: I want to move onto some advice, and we can address them in a few categories: composers, people who run music companies, and then, people who are more on your side of things. But let’s think about the people that are graduating right now. What advice would you give to somebody who is just trying to enter into this crazy world? Where would you start?
Andy Lykens: Whatever it is you’re doing, try to participate in the ecosystem as soon as you can. When you start something off, you’re not going to be very good at it. One of the hardest parts is learning how to get better, but you don’t just do that right away. It’s just like practicing an instrument. You don’t get better unless you spend time doing it every day. It feels so painful at the beginning, even in the middle, even past the middle, like even today, right?! It feels painful when you’re having a new learning, but it compounds over time.
Let’s say you’re a musician and you’re looking to get into the sync world or you’re looking to compose. I would just start writing every day and I would put it out where people can hear it as often as you can. That will be the best litmus test for your work. For one thing, you’ll be able to execute something from start to finish. Number two is that there’s a feedback loop and people either respond to it or they don’t. If you’re working in a world like sync, you need people to be responding to your music because it’s meant to drive some emotion. So I would say that would be the single best thing to do is just start. Stop making up all the excuses why you’re not doing the thing and just do the thing.
That’s a Wrap with Andy Lykens!
A huge shoutout to Andy for spending time with us and sparking some incredible motivation. Keep an eye on our next SAS Speaker Series interview by following us on LinkedIn or Instagram. Until next time!
What’s new at Score a Score you ask? We recently hosted the first episode of our SAS Speaker Series! Now you’re probably asking yourself, “What’s the SAS Speaker Series?” Our founder and CEO, Jordan Passman, just started hosting Zoom webinars where he’s joined by industry experts for some casual conversation about what they do best. Our first guest was Mike Ladman, a good friend and very talented music supervisor. Mike and Jordan met back in 2010 when Jordan first founded SAS. Mike at the time just started his internship at McCann, one of the most legendary ad agencies in the world. After working his way up at McCann, he eventually left to work at Droga5, a highly-respected creative ad agency. He’s been at Droga5 for 7 years now as a top Sr. Music Supervisor. From the evolution of music supervision to AI predictions, check out the entire interview below. Or, scroll through to read some of the highlights. Enjoy!
The SAS Speaker Series Presents: A Casual Conversation With Sr. Music Supervisor, Mike Ladman
Jordan: Now that you’re running the music at Droga5, which is known for being one of the most creative, and I would say, most respected ad agencies right now, what’s your favorite part of being a music supervisor today?
Mike: I think what’s fun is that it always changes. I think any job does as you move up and get experience. For so long my setup was: lock me in a room, don’t email me, don’t talk to me. I’m just going to look at the film and give you the best music in the world for it that is unexpected and elevating. That lights me up! However, in that version of my career as a music supervisor at that time, I never cared about negotiating, getting the deals, or things like that. Now, I love that part.
Jordan: Can you talk to us about how a song is actually selected these days? When you get a brief, what’s going to be the process?
Mike: I will always answer the brief and go with my gut and what excites me. If I have a clear brief, sometimes it’ll answer the script exactly. I will send tracks based on that brief, whether that’s a lyrical brief or an instrumental brief. That selection comes from me and my team. First, we pitch what we think works best and why to our creatives at Droga5. From there, we go to the client with our top three favorite tracks. The client has their own hierarchy to look through those options. We’ll send more options and pivot as needed based on how the project moves along.
Just listening to more music than most humans on Earth and having been a music supervisor for so long, I have a different knowledge. My formula for the feels, which is what we’re looking for, comes in three parts. First, is the song good? Will it give me goosebumps, and does it have soul or a human quality to it? Second, is it telling the story? Third, can you do both of those things in an unexpected way? When you get to part three, the selection and getting to the goosebumps becomes much easier
Jordan: Every time I hear about this process, I’m just reminded that it’s a miracle every time we get a license because of how many people have to give a thumbs up. How many would you say are in that process from accounts to producers to creatives to the client?
Mike: It varies. There are cases where the client just trusts us, which is rare. It’s the same with the creatives. There are clients that I have worked with for ages who won’t share their thoughts until they hear what I think is best. It is wild how there are times when it all gets approved days before. I never believe it until it’s on the air.
Jordan: What about the timeline? Sometimes you’re at the luxury of taking a long time. Then there are other times when they need something right away. How much does that change your approach from a strategy standpoint?
Mike: It’s not necessarily always that one is better than the other. I think with music you can have that song that you’ve been working on for years and it’s amazing. Or you can have a one-hour challenge. That lack of ability to have perfectionism or make quick decisions sometimes gets you more interesting results. I call them bandaid spots. As a music supervisor, those are almost more fun, because sometimes you can overthink something and forget your north star. Usually after round 6 or 7, typically the best stuff is in there. Sometimes if it gets to Crazy Town and you’re on round 12 or 13, you are at that “I have no idea what I’m doing” place. You’ve sent every good song and you’re now just throwing weird stuff in there that isn’t quite on point. That stuff though may open up some new avenue or unlock some magic that while overthinking for the perfect song, you might not have arrived at. In general, though, it’s often that first gut track.
Jordan: Aside from working with music partners like Score a Score, what is your process of finding those hidden gems of music right now? Where do you find inspiration? Where do you find yourself listening to songs that most people aren’t?
Mike: If everyone goes to the gap, we’re all going to look the same. All music supervisors are getting the same mailers from all the labels and publishers, so I do go through those because it curates a lot. I’ve been a music supervisor for 14 years and I’ve publicly and vocally made my tastes known. I am a total music nerd and people who I have worked with a lot will be like, “Hey, I just got this, and I know you’ll love it!”
I do try to find other ways though. Bandcamp is great. I find all of these labels from around the world doing these reissues and other things that can be nerve-wracking to pitch. However, those resources can lead me to some great roads. The best answer to that question is that I started a playlist. I used to do a monthly playlist for Droga5, which then led me to do a weekly playlist for the past 2 and a half years with 10 eclectic tracks each week. I now have all these different playlists of people that I find. I’ll find some Ethiopian disco track and not know where I found it. Then I’ll see the label that put it out. If it’s had 1,000 streams, I’ll see who else has put that track on a playlist and liked it. Then I’ll check that out. If it’s an overall interesting playlist, I’ll follow that person.
Jordan: A lot of people on here are composers and their dream is to be working on a campaign with you, doing something custom. That is something you can’t just wait around for. I think what’s amazing about Droga5 is you have the opportunity to work with whomever you want. Do you still see the opportunity to work on unique documentaries or other long-form projects that can elevate the brand to get the attention of advertising on the back end?
Mike: 100%. That’s often what we try to do. There are a lot of creators out there. There’s you guys and music houses and I think that’s a great way to do it. If someone just wants to be a composer, that’s great! There are always references. “We want something that sounds like Jungle or sounds like Tame Impala.” There’s usually a reference like a film, tv show, or ad. With Droga5, however, we’ll go right to the artists and bands ourselves rather than sending someone else. If it’s not LCD Soundsystem, who else is in that world, and can we get an artist like that to do it?
Just start doing it. There are probably a lot of creators who want to be producers. If you’re a composer and you want to do it for a motion picture, just do it. Find commercials and rip the audio and see what makes it interesting. Just make sure you’re clear in saying that you did it on your own. Start noticing that stuff. Start listening to soundtracks and movies that you like. We often work with or through companies to get to the individual writer, whether that’s through you or a music house so that we get a little bit more bang for our buck.
Jordan: I am curious about the flipside. What are the more challenging aspects of working directly with a composer on a custom job?
Mike: So much is about the creative. There are times that I’ve had those 1 million dollar budgets, and I end up going to stock music. The difficulty might be that with demos, you will get 5 to 12 tracks. If you go with a composer, you just get one and it creates a kind of mental game to get everyone on that boat.
Jordan: The big like thing we are seeing everywhere right now is AI. Everybody is wondering what’s going to happen. I’m curious, are you currently using any sort of AI in your day-to-day job, and where do you see it going in the industry?
Mike: I think it’s a tool. Autotune and Melodyne didn’t stop singers from singing. People like James Blake were probably the first to take it – even though they could sing – and make something more interesting. I think AI can help bring larger arrangements, like orchestral stuff, to people who don’t have those budgets or no music house. Similar to Jeff Tweedy’s songwriting strategy, ChatGPT can help find different word combinations. However, in the same way as copying and pasting from Wikipedia, it can be kind of like plagiarizing and uninteresting. I also think that music from the creation side will run into something similar. For example, you hear three songs. How does that impact your writing? How do you put your spin on it?
For us at Droga5, almost every creative deck has something for AI. I think the tricky thing is the legalities behind it. Lawyers and EA plus agencies and labels are a little scared right now. We are trying to figure out how to make a version that will be usable in a public and commercial space. I think people and musicians are just going to start using it. If they are going to do something great and not think about that, hopefully, it doesn’t turn into Napster where they sue the customers. Whether it’s emotions or anything you’re scared of, it’s probably something to dig deeper into it. It’s happening and opinion doesn’t matter. Just try to figure out how to embrace and utilize it.
Jordan: I agree with you. It’s a matter of how we use it and embrace it and not about how we fight it. They are tools for sure, and of course, some aspects feel threatening. It’s just fascinating stuff.
That’s a Wrap with Sr. Music Supervisor, Mike Ladman!
To quote Jordan, “Mike, you are a legend, you are the man, and we thank you so much for joining us to kick this off!” We are very excited to keep our SAS Speaker Series going. Sign up for our newsletters to be the first to know about our next webinar. You can also follow us on LinkedIn or Instagram. See you all at the next one!
In our latest episode of the SAS Speaker Series, we had the opportunity to chat with Bryan Cosgrove, Director of Commercial Music and Creative Licensing at TikTok. As both a TikTok Sound Partner and a fan of the app, it has been such a joy seeing what kind of impact TikTok has had on the music industry. Sitting down with Bryan and learning more about how to use music on TikTok, the power of the Commercial Music Library (CML), and ways for musicians to think outside of the box when creating music for TikTok was such an honor.
The SAS Speaker Series Presents: How to Use Music on TikTok with Bryan Cosgrove
Before we dive in, here’s a little backstory about Score a Score’s history with TikTok. Our founder and CEO Jordan Passman became very curious about TikTok during the summer of 2019. He didn’t know a whole lot about it at the time except for the fact that it was rapidly increasing in popularity. That was also around the time when Jordan learned that Bryan started working at TikTok. For Jordan, this legitimized the platform from a music industry standpoint. As he puts it, “It was the early stages of this Wild West moment where brands and users could use whatever song they wanted. As a result, it was blowing up new music and unearthing songs that hadn’t been popular in 30 years.”
There was an amazing momentum with early TikTok users and that’s when Jordan and Bryan started talking about the CML and the concept of having to tell brands that they could no longer use whatever songs they wanted unless they were going to get a real license. Score a Score was lucky enough to be a part of that initial launch of the CML. We had 1,000 Score a Score songs out of the 4,000 that brands could use at no cost because of our deal with TikTok. That all said, we want to start by thanking Bryan and his team for believing in us to be an early partner.
Cue the Interview!
Jordan Passman: What are you looking for in collaborators and musical partners right now?
Bryan Cosgrove: A deep understanding of the platform is so crucial. It’s not necessarily that you have to understand that this is a TikTok sound because there’s no one single TikTok sound. It’s about comprehending whether or not you are interacting authentically. Our community can really suss out when something doesn’t feel genuine. For our partners, I think the ones that have had the most success have really leaned into the idea of being platform experts, being community experts, and staying engaged and authentic. They are reaching out to creators and musicians that they really like and finding inspiration from them. I think that drives a lot of the success for the partners that are flourishing on our platform and that’s who we like to work with.
Jordan Passman: If you were to try and predict the future, where do you see all this short-form content heading? Where are people going to be listening to music and where is music discovery on TikTok heading?
Bryan Cosgrove: What’s interesting to me is that I think the short-form content as we know it is evolving quite a bit. When I joined the platform it was primarily 15-second videos. Now, they’ve gotten longer over time. I like to think of those really short clips as meme content. Right now, there’s more narrative content coming out plus educational content. People like to consume their content in different ways and that’s why the algorithm is so great because you’ll be served a lot of the stuff that you really enjoy. As far as music discovery goes, one of the things that I’m really excited about that we just launched within the last few weeks is the discover mode where you can find a song on our platform and then click into that song and save it on your DSP of choice. So if you find a song, you can seamlessly add it to Spotify, Apple Music, or Amazon, which is great. We like to consider ourselves a music discovery platform. If you were to scroll through my TikTok feed you’d see a lot of music blogger-type content. For example, “The Top 10 Best Indie Albums of the Year.” Having the opportunity to click straight through that and go right into Spotify and start listening to the album is so cool. It’s an interesting time for investment in the music industry. There’s a lot of great technology out there. Creating that halo effect where everything feels interconnected is really exciting.
Jordan Passman: When creating music specifically for TikTok you don’t want to necessarily copy what is trending. Is there any sort of insight you might have on how to think outside of the box and where to find inspiration to do so?
Bryan Cosgrove: I think one of the great things about creator communities is that they are expert collaborators. You will see a creator who’s big somewhere on the platform meet a creator who’s big in a different vertical and community-build together in the content they create. The music community has a great opportunity to do that as well. If you think about some of the viral songs over the last four plus years, they’ve been versions of other songs. Whether they are covers or sped-up versions, there are endless iterative opportunities around music. I think one thing you could do as a frequent user of our platform is find some of the users who are doing these remixes and collaborate with them. Get them to work with you on your music. Get them to guest on your music or maybe do a vocal. Borrow a strategy from the creator community and apply it to music and you will see that go a long way.
That’s a Wrap on Bryan Cosgrove and How to Use Music on TikTok!
We hope this interview has sparked as much inspiration in you as it has in us! A huge shoutout again to Bryan for taking the time to chat with us. To stay in the loop on our upcoming webinars, subscribe to our newsletters. See you all at the next one!
Dive deep into the world of music licensing with Amanda Levine, Senior Director of Music & Licensing at Platinum Rye Entertainment, in our first SAS Speaker Series interview of 2024! Amanda shares invaluable insights into the complexities of music licensing and pricing, unraveling the mysteries of hidden fees within contracts, the impact of geo-gigs and geo-blocking on music distribution, and the nuanced world of samples and interpolations.
Unlocking Music Licensing Secrets with Amanda Levine
Jordan Passman: One thing I’m curious about is the future of licensing. When I started out, airing on TV was considered the best. Broadcast was a big term that could always get a big budget. When you think about paid media on YouTube though, you are getting more eyeballs and bang for your buck than airing on TV these days. Do you think we’re moving towards an all-media, worldwide perpetuity license, especially with the emergence of new platforms and media? I know that drives up the cost a lot but will broader rights lead to lower fees for those rights? Or do you still see the term being so tied to the media?
Amanda Levine: I think we’re starting to see fees change in that respect. As you mentioned, there was a time when TV dominated the value of licensed music or talent. Now, digital plays a huge role in this landscape. As a result, digital fees are cranking up. I don’t know if there is ever going to be a point where they’re synonymous. We are finding that if you just license something for digital only and it’s a big catalog track that everyone knows, fees are going up, which is an industry-wide situation. There will always be songs that have that premium value. Everyone knows them. It’s nostalgic. It’s emotional and connects people to something greater. I think it’s important to have a problem-solving mentality when big shifts like this happen, which Score a Score has done so well. I think licensing has become such a money-maker for musicians, music agencies, and producers. Unless the music industry shifts so much and values things very differently, I don’t see a world where it will equal out.
Jordan Passman: Can you tell us about the hidden fees that many people outside of your industry wouldn’t necessarily think of that would be on a contract like SAG?
Amanda Levine: Yeah, of course! So I am well versed with this to an extent because I have a lot of clients that are signatory to music unions. When we’re talking about music unions as far as the US is concerned, we’re mainly talking about SAG or AFTRA and the artist or their vocal likeness. There is also AFM, which is the American Federation of Musicians, which supports musicians that are in the Union. Let’s say a brand in the US is licensing a song in the US and the song was recorded under a union contract like AFM, a side contract, or both, additional fees would be due to the singers of that song and/or the musicians. In those situations, you would probably work with an expert of the signatory company, which there are a bunch of, or reach out to the union directly so they can help navigate what your costs might be. Similar to a licensing fee, there are fixed rates for those things, but they’re based on the usage of your commercial.
Jordan Passman: What tips do you have for musicians, composers, or artists who are looking to break into having these Fortune 100 companies that you work with to license their music?
Amanda Levine: There are some trends in the ad world like covers. That’s a big one! Things that feel good and happy always sit well with clients. Rap is sort of getting back into it so I feel like hip-hop music with no samples is great. If you’re a musician, definitely try exploring that. I think in general, the advice I like to give is just to network. The internet is crazy and amazing all at the same time. Use it to connect with people in your industry. Research! If you see a commercial online that inspires you, look to see what producers or agencies are creating those ads. Trades like Adweek will include an entire list of people who worked on that project. Attend webinars like this! Network by attending concerts or happy hours, and make it a point to speak with someone new; you never know where a conversation might lead. Finally, stay positive. I’m not a musician myself, but being one is hard and can take a lot out of you. It’s emotional, it’s vulnerable, and it’s important to stay true to yourself.
That’s a Wrap with Amanda Levine on Music Licensing!
A massive thank you to Amanda Levine for joining us and enlightening us on the ins and outs of music licensing. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes by following us on LinkedIn or Instagram. Until next time!
This month on our SAS Speaker Series, we are joined by the one-and-only Lindsey Kohon, Head of Music at gnet agency! In this episode, Lindsey gives us a deep dive into the intricacies of selecting music for video games, the best approach for composing music for video games, and the importance of sound design.
Exploring the World of Music for Video Games with Lindsey Kohon
Jordan Passman: Tell us about your creative process for selecting video game music.
Lindsey Kohon: At gnet, it varies depending on the project and client. Sometimes, a client will come in with a very specific idea, but that is pretty rare. What usually happens is a client comes to us for our creative input. We have a very strong and talented creative team and that is where the ideas start. It will be either myself or another creative director who sits down with the creative team and we just start bouncing ideas around.
Jordan Passman: What sort of trends are you seeing in music for video games? Have some of them come and gone and then come back again? I’m curious what your predictions are of where the trends are going for video game music.
Lindsey Kohon: We haven’t seen the end of mashups yet. The same goes for covers and remixes. Two years ago, we did a really cool mashup for Call of Duty with “Eye of the Tiger” featuring Missy Elliott and Lizzo. That was so much fun. For me personally, I am really big on sound design. I always love a trailer that is heavy in sound design and I’d love to see more of that.
Jordan Passman: The gaming industry fans are probably some of the most dedicated fans in the world. So every time you’re putting out new content, it feels like millions of people are going to be looking at it and scrutinizing it. How do you incorporate that feedback into future decision-making when it comes to music selection and creative? Is that something you weigh out personally or is it the company?
Lindsey Kohon: I think fans have a lot to say and rightfully so. We want them to think what we’re creating is cool and exciting. Take Call of Duty, for instance. Going into every season of Call of Duty, you try to do something fresh and something that they haven’t seen before. I think that’s always the take. Juxtaposition for each new season is so important. Oftentimes, you’re in a different era. Maybe it’s the Cold War or maybe it’s the ’80s. That aspect can be indicative of where our music selection and creative goes.
Jordan Passman: What advice do you have for composers trying to get into the game?
Lindsey Kohon: I have a lot of young composers reach out to me and what I tell them is to build up their own library. Go onto other sites and go onto YouTube because a lot of libraries post their work on YouTube as well. While doing that research make sure to listen. Listen to what’s out there and start building up your own albums. Also, network. Start on LinkedIn and just keep on connecting with people in the industry.
That’s a Wrap on Music for Video Games with Lindsey Kohon!
We want to send another big thank you to Lindsey Kohon for sharing her insights about the process of selecting music for video games. Make sure to stay tuned for upcoming episodes by following us on LinkedIn or Instagram. Until next time!
